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Trust More Scarce Than Water — Environmental Diplomacy with Tareq Abu-Hamed

What happens to dialogue under trauma?

Can cooperation survive when trust has collapsed?

And what does climate change reveal about our shared fate in a region defined by borders and conflict?

In this episode of RAW, I speak with Tareq Abu-Hamed, an environmental scientist and Executive Director of the Arava Institute for Environmental Studies — a joint Israeli-Palestinian institute working at the intersection of climate change, conflict, and dialogue in the Middle East.

Tareq grew up in East Jerusalem and came of age during the first Intifada. An early encounter with Jewish neighbors in a nearby kibbutz shaped his life and his path. His academic journey took him through Turkey, the Weizmann Institute, and the United States, before returning to the region to help build one of the most unusual institutions here: a place where Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, and international students live and study together while confronting shared environmental challenges.

In our conversation, we speak about climate change as a security issue, the reality of shared aquifers, Gaza’s environmental devastation, and why ecology does not stop at borders. We talk honestly about October 7th, trauma, dehumanization, and what it takes to keep dialogue alive when fear and grief make it harder to see the human on the other side.

This is not a conversation about easy answers.

It’s about trust being more scarce than water in a region where nothing is separate — and where refusing cooperation comes at a real human cost.

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You can find more episodes of RAW, along with my writing, guided meditations, and newsletter, at WithAnouk.com.

If this conversation resonated, you’re welcome to subscribe, share it with someone who might listen with care, or simply stay in touch there.

Thank you for listening.

  • 0:00 Introducing Tareq Abu-Hamed and the Arava Institute When you are in the other, you know the other words in the middle of nowhere. And when you have a kibbutz there and have these Palestinians, Israelis, Jordanians living together for the semester or two, they will have enough time to discuss everything, to have a dialogue about family stories, personal stories, culture, the the conflict. 0:18 And they build understanding of that. And understanding does not mean that we agree. We disagree on a lot of things. I disagree with my wife and a lot of things, but I trust her and this is what we need. Understanding that leads to to trust, we really need that. And that is the major disaster that happened, the disconnection between the people of the region. 0:48 Speaker 2 Welcome to RAW, where we explore what it means to stay human in the heart of conflict. I'm Anu Glory today on RAW. I'm joined by Tarek Abu Hamed, an environmental scientist, educator, and one of the most compelling voices I've encountered in the field of environmental diplomacy. 1:09 Tarek is the executive director of the Arava Institute for Environmental Studies. Based in Kibbutz Kitura in Yarava Desert. The institute brings together Israeli, Palestinian, Jordanian and international students to study environmental challenges while living, learning and often disagreeing together. 1:30 Tariq grew up in East Jerusalem and came of age during the first intifada. An early encounter with Jewish neighbors in a nearby kibbutz stayed with him, shaping a life devoted to connection. His academic past took him through Turkey, the Weitzman Institute of Science, and the United States before turning to the region to help build something rare, a place where science, environment, and trust are inseparable. 1:59 In this conversation, we speak about what environmental diplomacy means in a region where every aquifer is shared, where climate change is already reshaping agriculture and migration, and where trust has been deeply eroded, especially since October 7th. 2:16 We talk about dialogue under trauma, Gaza's environmental devastation, and why ecology does not stop at borders. And we ask what it takes to refuse to see the other as an enemy, even in times of profound pain. 2:34 As usual, this is not a conversation about easy answers. It's about trust being more scarce than water in a region where nothing is separate and we're refusing cooperation comes at a real human cost. 2:56 Tareq's Personal Journey to Environmental Diplomacy Tarek, welcome. Thank you for joining me on RAW. I appreciate it. 3:02 Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you for your interest in what we do and for having me. 3:06 Speaker 3 Before we dive into really, really fascinating work and there's so much to talk about, tell us a little bit about you and, and, and your background and, and who you are and what brought you to the field of environmental diplomacy, which you know, is, is, is an interesting combination of words that we'll talk about as well. 3:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, the region that we, that we live in needs understanding and, and trust between the people who share this, this region. And I, I grew up in, in East Jerusalem and they finished my high school during the first, the first intifada where the tension was, was very high. 3:51 And they had the opportunity to interact with, with my Jewish neighbors in Kibbutz Somatra Health. So that was my first interaction with, with my Jewish neighbor and that stayed inside me. And because of the Intifada, I had to leave the country and go to study in, in Turkey for 12 years. 4:08 I returned to Israel, to the to the Weisman Institute. I worked there for three years, then two years in in Minneapolis and in Minnesota. And when I hear that the Arava Institute is looking for someone to establish the Center for Renewable Energy, I said this is the place I want to, I want to be for many reasons. 4:27 The most important ones, it's because it's a place that connects people, brings people to together. And the second important reason, because it's in kibbutz. We are located in Kibbutz Kutura. And I wanted to give my wife and my daughters the same opportunity I had when I was, you know, a kid in Kibbutz Samantha hell to interact first hand with our Jewish neighbors. 4:49 So this is how I joined the, the Aruba Institute. I'm a strong believer in the power of, of science and environment as as a diplomacy tool to bring people together. We, we share the same environment in this, in this region, the same environmental challenges. 5:07 We live under the threat of climate change. And we can convert this challenge into a diplomacy tool to bring people together, not only to cope with the impact of climate change, but also to connect people, to build the bridges and to give them the opportunity to humanize each other, to see the human in the other. 5:26 And this is what is lacking in this in this region. So this is how I come to to this world. I saw the impact of, you know, direct interaction with the other myself. I saw how powerful it is. And I wanted to continue in this path. 5:43 Regional Climate Change: A First-Degree Security Issue It seems like the two areas that you're working with, both diplomacy, seeing the other working together across borders and climate are two areas you know, with, I wouldn't say insurmountable challenges because you're addressing some of the challenges successfully, but it become even more challenging. 6:05 Yesterday I was at the supermarket in Tel Aviv and I always bring my my bag like a good European Belgian. I bring my bag with me because I don't want plastic bags. And every supermarket I go to, I say like, no, no, I don't need a plastic bag. And they look at me like, why yesterday I said to this guy, I look at this plastic bag and immediately what I see is 1000 years from now, the same plastic bag and a, you know, and kind of micro bits and the fish is eating it and, and, and dying and I just can't. 6:33 So I have my bag. And he was like, huh, I've, I've never thought about that. I, I never, never really known that plastic bags can, you know, stick around for that long. And I thought, Oh my God, like if the guy who hands out hundreds of plastic bags per day, he's never been exposed to any content about the environment, you know, what does that say about our our society? 6:56 And of course, then, you know, this is very kind of pinpointed example. But so I kind of feel like you're dealing with with very, very big challenges. And on the diplomacy side, since October 7th, I'm wondering, like, is diplomacy still possible? And is care for the environment in a region where so many people are in a state of kind of psychological survival, sometimes physical? 7:20 Do people care about about the environment and about dialogue? 7:24 Speaker 1 They do, and I will not be surprised if our politicians will care about that too, very, very, very soon. I think with the change in our climate, the disasters that that we see that will change the whole perspective of politicians on how they approach climate change in in our region. 7:46 We hear what's happening in Turkey, in Iraq and in Syria, also in in Iran. And these countries have, you know, huge reverse and they suffer from the lack of the lack of water when it comes to, to our region. People think, you know, environment is, you know, less plastic, less waste, less wastewater. 8:07 That's very important. However, we, we live in a region that is under the threat of the climate change. We are considered as a hot spot when it comes to, to climate change. The increase in the in temperature, the shift in seasons, the increase salinity of the of the soil, the increase salinity of the aquifers of the underground water, mainly in the Jordan Valley area. 8:28 And the Jordan Valley is considered, as you know, the food basket for Jordan, Palestine and, and Israel. And we know that the the salinity there is, is increasing. Farmers are leaving their land. If you look at the population growth in the Jordan Valley, you see that it's declining. 8:43 That does not mean that, you know, people are not doing kids. No, they do. But these kids migrate these these kids are not staying in that region. The number of farmers is declining. Why? Because of climate change. They don't have the high quality water they used to have, the high quality salt that they used to have. 9:00 And farming becomes very challenging for them. And when people migrate, that increases the instability in the region. People migrate to Ramallah, to Europe, to the, to the US and that's, you know, increases the the instability and this is a first degree security issue. 9:18 This is just a small example for the, for the Jordan Valley and the same thing also for the delta of an island in Egypt, which which is house for 15 to 17 million people. Most of them like live on, on agriculture, on, on farming. 9:33 And we know that that delta is also under the threat of climate change that, that rise in the, in the sea level. And besides that, you know, the increase of temperature and acidity of the, of the Mediterranean and the, the, you know, the fishing sector, the invasive species that we see in the eastern mid in the Israeli Shoals. 9:52 All of these, you know, big, big challenges and add to that the conflict that we that we live in. 10:00 Bridging Disconnection Through Shared Environmental Resources So you, you live in a region that shares the natural resources and you live in a region that is under the threat of climate change and you live in a region that has the, has the conflict. When I say we share the, the natural resources, I really mean it. There is no single aquifer groundwater in this region that is not shared. 10:19 Every Akufa is shared between Israel and its neighbors, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank, Gaza, Sinai. And we have to work with each other. Look, I'm Palestinian, I have an Israeli citizenship. I go to Jeanine, Nablus, Hebron, Bethlehem, and I meet people, not only scientists or, or students, I meet farmers. 10:41 I have normal people in the in the market. And at the same time I go to Akoya for that Sheva Tel Aviv and I meet people. And when we speak to these people, you'll see that they are interested in same things. They're not happy with what's going on. 10:57 They want high quality education, they want higher quality life. And they believe in peace, both Israelis and and Palestinians, and they're open to that. However, at the same level, they doubt that there is a partner on the other side. And that is because of the lack of connection between Israelis and and Palestinians. 11:16 And we always say the Palestinians lost the support and empathy of the Israeli society and the Israeli society lost the empathy and support of the Palestinian society. It's not because we are evils in both, on both sides. No, we're good people on, on both sides. But the lack of connection, the lack of bringing people together caused us to believe in all kinds of stereotypes and the fear that politicians play on. 11:41 So environment, climate change, it's a threat, impacts everyone in the region. But at the same time, it should be common interest and tools to bring people together amongst certain things because it impacts their, their daily lives. I'm talking about environmental diplomacy. 11:57 It can be high tech diplomacy, it can be health diplomacy, it can be a lot of, you know, agricultural diplomacy. Every sector tries to have an element of bringing it past in. As Israelis, together we can change this, this reality and build, build understanding. And they see that not only through the work that we do at the, at the Aravan Institute, but I see that also through our academic program, which is 1/3 Israeli Jewish, 1/3 internationals are 1/3 Arabic speakers from Jordan, Morocco, West Bank. 12:26 We used to have students from, from Gaza, giving these students the opportunity to live together for four months at the Arava Institute in Kibbutz Katura. When you are in the Arava, you know, the Arava in the middle of nowhere. And when you have a kibbutz there and have these Palestinians, Israeli, Jordanians living together for the semester or two, they will have enough time to discuss everything, to have a dialogue about family stories, personal stories, culture, the the conflict. 12:53 And they build understanding of that. And understanding does not mean that we agree. We disagree on a lot of things. I just, I disagree with my wife and a lot of things, but I trust her. And this what we need understanding that leads to, to trust. We need, we really need that. And that is the major disaster that happened to this decision, the disconnection between the people of the of the region. 13:15 Maintaining Dialogue and Humanity Post-October 7th Trauma One of the sentences I read on the the website is it says in the hyper arid, drought stricken Middle East, one resource is more precious than water. Trust. And so in a moment when trust feels like the thing we've all lost, like you said, Israelis have lost the empathy and the trust of Palestinians and vice versa. 13:37 You are heading an institute which almost has trust as its curriculum with the Palestinians and Jordanians and Israelis living together. So I wonder how October 7th in the war since has that changed how students interacted with each other, trusted each other? 13:57 Have you felt a breakdown perhaps even more than before and trust an increase of stereotyping like you, you mentioned? You know, I would, I would call it more than that. There is a real dehumanization on both sides. You know, when in trauma, what happens is the part of your the brain that is in charge of compassion and seeing the other and nuance is just shut off. 14:21 You're just in survival. Did you feel like you could continue going and trust could still be built in the last two years or or was there a real breakdown? 14:33 Speaker 1 What happened on October 7th is is horrible. I think there is no word that describes the, what happened on, on October 7th and with, you know, the, the shock, the, the trauma I think caused people to, to pause and to, to question a lot of things. 14:54 But October 7th was a great proof for the, for the Adoba Institute that this methodology is, is working. I'm very proud to say that we did not lose any graduate of the Adoba Institute and the alumni and any other partner since October 7th. 15:12 That's the power of dialogue. That's really the power of, you know, seeing the human in the other. We even managed to widen our Partners Network after October 7th. Now we work with Palestinian organizations both in Gaza and in in the West Bank, Jordanian organizations with Moroccan organizations that we never worked with before October 7th. 15:30 These are new partnerships to us. That does not mean that it was, it was easy. No, it was really very complex, but the the most powerful thing is, despite the the pain, we refused to see the other as, as an enemy. 15:50 And that's the power of humanizing the other. We continued the the work. The amount of solidarity, empathy between the communities that we that we work with was incredible. To see the support of Israeli students to their classmates in, in Gaza, trying to fundraise for them to leave Gaza to, you know, to have our Palestinian partners in Ramallah offering their homes to our staff members who are in Tel Aviv during the Iran war. 16:20 Because saying Ramallah is safer than Tel Aviv, come live with us. It's during the war with the, with Gaza, and that is the the power of this environmental diplomacy, giving people the opportunity to work with each other. I'll give you an, an example of, you know, the, the, the power of really bringing people, people together. 16:39 Besides, you know, the inviting people to come live in Damala. You, you go to the campus of the, of the Aruba Institute and see Palestinians, Jordanians is Zerleys and you see how they interact with each other. Once I was at the at the campus and you know, the Jordanian woman student was going to do her laundry and she saw that the washing machine is, is, is full. 17:01 The laundry is, is, is fallen. She shouted to one of the Jewish Israel students. I said, you know what, you're exactly like my brother. You never take your clothes from this machine. It's like she said that and she did not even think or recognize that. She said you are exactly like my my brother. 17:16 It was for her. It was like a normal sentence for both of them. But that is, you know, example of, you know, by, by living together, seeing the humans, seeing the, the common interests is, is really powerful. And another example we, we take our students for a dialogue trip in the, in the region. 17:35 And one of the places that we go to is Yad Rashem. And I think 3 or 4 years ago, we, we had students from Gaza and we arrived there and one of all the Israeli Jewish students, a woman looks at the Gazan students and says, look, I, I, you know, I, I did my national service here as, as a guide in Yad Basham. 17:58 Let me give you the tour. She gives him the tour. And toward the end of the tour, he says, you know, Delia, now, now I understand why you Jewish people needed the state to hear this from Gazan that he never lived outside of Gaza. His first interaction with Israelis was through the Darava Institute. 18:16 Probably he disagree, but he understands and that's the most important thing that we need. The communication after October 7th with with our Gazan partners in Gaza continued. We did not stop at all despite the pain that we have. 18:32 And it's extremely, extremely painful to have space, a new heart for the pain of the other, the pain of October 7th and also the pain of what's happening in Gaza. It's extremely painful, as I said, but it's extremely human. 18:51 And this is the nature of the region that we live in. What what drives our work, what keeps me in this, in this business is, is the impact. I see that in with our partners. I see that with our students, how they come and what they become, what they do when they go back to the communities, what they do when they go back to the universities and become professors and impact thousands of people. 19:16 This is the region that I I look for. This is Israel that I want to see. This is Palestine that I want to see. I do it because it's good for my people. And you know, when I see my people, they can be Jewish, they can be Palestinians. And I know that the Palestinian, our Palestinian partners do this work because it's good for the Palestinians. 19:34 So this is what motivates us. This is what keeps us starting this business. 19:43 Speaker 2 If you're enjoying this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to RAW on your favorite podcast platform. Leave a review and share it with someone who might find it meaningful. You can also explore more about the show and subscribe to my newsletter at withanook.com. 20:07 Why Environmental Cooperation is Essential for Peace It sounds like you know the Alava Institute and where you live. Like you said in the Alava, it is a kind of, it's, it's a beautiful testament to what can happen. But when you look at it in the kind of wider region and, and, and global contexts, it can feel somewhat like a, like a bubble, like a utopia. 20:29 Do you ever feel like when you pop your head out of the bubble, when you, when you see the level of, of dehumanization, do you, do you ever lose hope? Do you have moments of like darkness where you feel this is a drop in the ocean? Or is it just your nature to really focus on the important work and on the on the beauty that surrounds you with the humanity? 20:52 Speaker 1 As I said, I don't have the luxury to lose, to lose hope, and I never lost a lost hope. The foundation for for that is seeing the impact of, of our work and knowing the people of this region, that what keeps me helpful. 21:07 You know, it's right. It's, it's a bubble. We educate 80 to 120 students a year, but I believe that other organizations can do similar things as we do. But I'm, I'm sad. It really makes me very sad to see people who wants to disconnect, want to force people to leave from West Bank or or Gaza. 21:33 That makes me very sad because they really don't understand the the other and they never had the interaction with the other. To see the other as as an enemy, it's, it's painful. It's painful for those who have that feeling because they won't understand the situation on the ground. 21:52 You, you know, travel between Jericho and Becham in Creation 90, when you see Palestinian calls and then an Israeli calls, you see that if you manage to share a highway, we can manage to share other other things. You'll see this that thing also in in the West Bank. 22:11 Not everyone on the other side wants to kill to kill the other. And I won't exaggerate if I say you have 9095% of people who really wants real peace. 22:22 Speaker 3 There's this idea that nature knows no borders, but human beings do. So nature, climate change does not distinguish between Israel and Jordan and Palestinian territories, etcetera, Egypt, but we do. 22:40 And therefore, in a region where there is a lot of conflict, the cooperation might be less than in a region where there is peace. How do people here view the importance of climate change? Do you think it like the highest levels? 22:55 People do have an awareness of the importance of working together on the environment? Like you said, there is no no aquifer that in some ways isn't shared. So. So there really is this need for cooperation with our neighbors. How does that work? 23:11 What are do you feel like there is still an ability to cooperate and to understand the kind of shared destiny of of living in this earth together when there is conflict and when there is kind of this, the sense that survival or or more immediate things are threatening us. 23:28 Speaker 1 First of all, I think we need to educate the people of this region that dealing with with the climate change alone would never work because we share the nature of the sources of this, this region. Convincing people it's very easy because it's you need in the region, the farmers, the communities in the West Bank, the communities in Gaza in, in Israel need water and need clean, clean water. 23:54 It's not enough for Israel to make sure that, you know, the aquifer is, is clean because it's can be polluted by Jordanians or Palestinians or settlements. So working with each other is very important to protect these natural resources. I'll give you the example of the West Bank. 70% of the villages in the West Bank are not connected to a sewage network. 24:15 Houses in these villages you do use septic tanks and most of them are not very well insulated. So the sewage infiltrates into the mountain aquifer which is shared between the West Bank and Israel. So for me to go install an off grid wastewater treatment plant in, in Nablus or in Jericho or in Damala, I don't only solve an environmental issue, but I protect the shared natural resource. 24:37 And we do that, We do that in Nablus, We do that in the Jordan Valley. And when I say do that, we've been doing this for a decade. And we did that after October 7th. And our Israeli Jewish team still goes to Nablus to maintain and turn the Palestinians on how to use these systems. 24:54 So this is one example of, of projects that we implement in the, in the region. 24:59 Regional Energy Connections for Stability and Security Convincing people is, as I said, it's easy because impacts their, their daily life. There are in need for, you know, clean water. They are in need for any type of water for, for agriculture. They need energy to pump water because the over extraction makes it harder and harder to pump water from the aquifer. 25:18 So when you train farmers in Jordan, in the West Bank and in Gaza and how to use solar energy to pump water, help use solar energy to desalinate water. And we do these things in the in these in these areas to continue their the agricultural activities. 25:33 Speaker 3 I think you also mentioned that Israel on the one hand is safe because it created all these technologies like Desalina tion and has a very strong power grade. On the other hand, you mentioned it's like a energy island, meaning if ever there is a cyber attack or a major problem, we're kind of on our own. 25:54 Can you talk a little bit more about that and and why you think that's, for example, one of the examples for Israelis to understand the importance of collaborating with neighbors, whether they are neighbors with whom we have peace treaties or not? 26:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. First of all, we all know that stable neighbor means I have a stable home and water is very important for the, for the region helping Jordanians and Palestinians to have the right know how and the technology to protect, share the environmental resources and to produce say water that we could build to the stability of this of this region, not only in Jordan and the West Bank, but also stability there means stability in, in Tel Aviv. 26:41 And I will not exaggerate if I say stability here means stability in the rest of the the world. We saw that after October 7th when it comes to to Israel, Israel is an energy island. You know, the Israeli grid is not connected to any other country for now. 26:59 You know, Israel is a country that is blessed by a very high amount of solar radiation. It was a lot of wonderful work around, you know, 2000 and nine, 2010 where the renewable energy market in Israel was blooming and there was a lot of enthusiasm that this is the future of Israel. 27:19 Then Israel explored the the natural gas and they decided not to invest enough in renewables. And we don't see that a country that is blessed with this amount of solar radiation generate enough renewable electricity. 27:35 Look, with the extreme weather conditions that we have, extreme cold waves, extreme heat waves, every year we break the record on industrial for electricity consumption. We're lucky that we have air conditioners. If you look to Europe, we see that thousands of people die every year because of heat waves. 27:54 And it's that they don't because we have air conditioning. However, if you know a cyber attack or terror attack on one of the power stations during one of the sea weather conditions, that will cause a lot of casualties in Israel, connecting Israel to its neighbors. 28:09 Is is very crucial to have that stability and security of the supply for the electricity and the reliance on each other on Jordan, on Jordan relies on in Israel that also contributes the stability of the region. 28:25 We saw that on on water, we saw that between Israel and Jordan on, on natural gas, we saw that between Israel and Egypt on the on natural gas. So people think twice before they take any decision because they know that I rely on this country for, for something and that contributes more and more to the stability. 28:45 And besides that also the increases the interaction between the governments and the people of the region. 28:51 Ecocide in Gaza and the Need for True Leadership During the war there, there there was a lot of controversy whenever international bodies or international actors use the term genocide for what's happening in Gaza. There was another term which fewer people know, which is echo side, which means destroying the the ecology of another population. 29:09 One of the things that I think is is not talked about much here in Israel is, is the level of really ecological devastation that is happening there with, with sewage everywhere in the streets, some pollution levels, epidemics coming back, preventable diseases. 29:26 Can you tell us more about the kind of scale of the devastation there and also whether it in any ways also impacts Israelis? Does does the kind of ecological climate devastation there eventually also impact Israeli children? 29:43 Speaker 1 Indeed it does, like we we're talking about 10 kilometers from between, you know, the Eastern Mediterranean or the Gaza shop or the OR the Gaza envelope, maximum 1015 kilometers. The the aquifer, the coastal aquifer shed between Israel and Gaza. 30:02 That means all of this sewage will go into the shield aquifer. Not only that, it's the, you know, the streams in the eastern Mediterranean are SN which means all the pollution that goes into the Gaza Shoals reaches Ashkelon in a few hours. So what happened in Gaza will not stay in Gaza. 30:18 And that also, besides the diseases that will embor diseases, the diseases for the for the plantations that will indeed reach itself. What happened in to the environment in Gaza is is horrible. It's totally, totally destroyed. 30:33 But I also believe that in the power of of nature that will restore itself, but it leads it is a lot of interaction from us and really how to treat what happened. Air pollution locates besides all of these greenhouse gas emissions from the army machinery, from the explosions, from all other things Gaza had, you know, hundreds of tons, if not thousands of tons of asbestos and that all of it is on the now on the soil and sand of, of Gaza. 31:06 And that might also infiltrate into the aquifer or the powder of the asbestos may arrive to Israel. There's a lot of work that needs to be done with with Gazans right now to really have soil samples, air samples, water samples and try to work together to evidiate this environment. 31:25 Speaker 3 Is there anyone in this current government that you feel has a willingness, the courage, the the desire to work with partners, even if it's like we mentioned, it's, it's in a way it's for selfish reasons because nature doesn't distinguish between borders. 31:43 But is there the courage in in this government, at least here in Israel, to remediate, for example, some of the environmental hazards in Gaza, even if it is just because eventually our children might be affected as well? 31:58 Speaker 1 Well, this vision lacks leaders. We have a lot of politicians and not leaders. A leader who think about the future of his nation, the future of his of his country. 32:14 If we all look Palestinian, Israelis, what happened to us in the last 30 years, We understand that there were no leaders. The leaders they think to stabilize this region with the future of our generations and this region. 32:30 What is going on right now on both sides just widens and deepens the disconnection between Israelis and Palestinians. And this serves actually the three extremists on both sides, stability, giving people hope, giving people jobs, giving people, you know, high quality life, having people think twice about losing what they have. 32:52 And this is how you stabilize the region. People in Gaza used to work for six shekels a day. Six shekels. These are university graduates. And you know, I give you 20 shekels and you'll go dig a tunnel for me. So everything that was done by the Palestinians, by the PA and and also Israel, I think led to what happened to us. 33:14 And if you look, the continuation of these actions, it's just will widen the problem. And the action that is taken right now is just just a painkiller. If actions or policies that we design do not take into consideration the people of the region, the next generations, we are talking about hundreds of thousands of young Israelis who were in the middle AIM, who were in the in the army. 33:38 We are talking about 1.5 million dozens that are below the age of 35. That both has the trauma. We need to deal with this. We cannot deal with this, with the continuation of, of disconnection, the continuation of, of punishing people, the continuation of leaving the arena for the extremists on both sides. 34:00 So to, to answer your question, does anyone in this government has the the courage to treat that? I don't think so. I don't think so. When I said we don't have leaders, leader takes into consideration that I might lose the next election because I thought about my nation, because my nation or my country comes first, even if I lose election next time. 34:23 Speaker 3 It's like when I want to have to take very unpopular decisions with my children, there is always the desire that, you know, for them to, to like me more than to do the right thing. I always make parenting analogies, but I think the politicians, in many ways, it's, it's the same. 34:39 It's having the courage to make an unpopular decision at the risk of of losing votes. Have you ever thought of going into politics? You know, my husband and I this morning, we we were looking, we were reading the news together and, and seeing some of the stories that are coming out of Israeli politics, but of course, also the politics of our neighbors. 35:01 It's just so astounding. You can't help but laugh about it. But of course, you know that it deserves all our tears. And he said politics in Israel attracts the the drag of society. And that's a Yiddish word for the for the, for the sewage. 35:17 And I always wonder why there are not more people with the with the wisdom, with the compassion, with the courage, with the leadership that go into politics. Is that something you ever thought about? 35:32 Speaker 1 No, no, not the not at all. I was in the, in the public service for three years. I'm, I'm a scientist and the, my world is, is different. I think everyone can contribute to this region in different ways and investing in youth, investing in the next generation. 35:59 I think it's more important for me to learn to go to the politics. You have to be built for that. And just one comment on what you said about, you know, raising kids. I heard this phrase from friend who who said sometimes you have to be very tough on the people that you love. 36:18 And that's, you know, correct for for family, correct in the business and correct when you become a leader. 36:26 Speaker 3 So you're in many ways working with the next generation, some of whom may become leaders in different fields. 36:34 Shaping the Next Generation with Open Hearts What gives you hope about these, this generation of people that you're training at the Alavine Institute? 36:41 Speaker 1 What gives me hope is actually they see that there's something not working. They blame us on that. They always say, you know, we ruined this world and we are trying to give you tools and how to fix it, both in the environmental aspects and also on the political aspects. 37:02 Gives me hope that they are not happy with the situation and they are very enthusiastic and courage to do this change. They are open to speak with the other, They are open to dialogue. And when they come to the institute, they even become more and more open to dialogue and to hear things that they don't like to hear. 37:26 And that's actually the basics of dialogue. And they create this really understanding, I understanding how you came to that, to that point. And our generation and the previous generations did not have that skill. 37:42 Speaker 3 Where do you think that your own ability to keep your heart open, where does it come from? Is it you think something that you were taught? Is it a value that was present in your family growing up? Is it your own personal temperament? 37:58 And are the people around you, the Palestinians specifically, do they feel the same way or do you feel like some of their hearts are are more closed? 38:07 Speaker 1 I think I was fortunate to first of all, to be raised in, in a family that is open to the other. My father has still have a lot of Jewish friends. We used, you know, probably every other Saturday morning to have a breakfast with my father's friends who are, who are Jewish. 38:26 I was fortunate really to have that opportunity to be in Kibbutz Anatra Hill and interact with the with the young people and to have that first interaction. And I'm fortunate to be East Jerusalemite, which means I can go to the West Bank and they call gang go to Israel and interact with the two societies. 38:44 And that builds in me the understanding of the both societies, understand the people and complexities there. These factors actually shaped my my personality. Look, we all, we all are humans, despite the ideologies that we have, despite the fear that we have. 39:05 If we try to focus on common things between Israelis and Palestinians, we will see that there's like 9095% similarities and we try just to focus on the differences between us. Unfortunately enough, you know, to understand that Islam encourages and pushes people to peace and not to war. 39:26 That understanding of, of Islam does not allow me to be extremist. That's my understanding of Islam, which comes from Salem, which is Shalom, and that is what Islam is. So having all of these factors, I think shaped my my personality and shaped the way that I decided going. 39:47 Speaker 3 When speaking with fellow Palestinian citizens of Israel, do you feel like sometimes you're the odd man out? Or are the there more people than we think who are really still able to see the other one as their neighbor, as as a human being, as somebody that they want to live in peace with? 40:07 Speaker 1 I think there are a lot of people on both sides in West Bank and Gaza included in Israel, both Arabs and and Jewish. However, coexistence, peace, democracy, human rights, these are things that are not granted and nothing is guaranteed. 40:26 And we see this in this crazy world, we see it here should be always on our agenda. We need to speak loud enough about the importance of these things. We need to educate our kids about the importance of these things and not to leave the arena for extremists. 40:44 Speaker 3 What are some of the technologies, perhaps Israeli technologies that are really kind of cutting edge and exciting for you right now in in the field of climate? 40:56 The Power of Education and Small Interactions Agrotech the green tech the use of Internet of Things when it comes to agriculture and and environment. All of these technologies, if we use them in the proper way, if we manage really to expand the use of term around the around the world, that will help us a lot to cope with the climate change. 41:16 High tech is is important, but the most important thing is, is education. And you know, you start the decomposition talking about the plastic bags. Everything starts with education and to educate the next generation on how to use things more efficiently and to deduce our consumption. 41:35 This world is is balanced. The nature is balanced and when you miss with this balance the nature of the acts. So we need to educate the next generation and then how to be balanced in every aspect of their life. 41:51 Speaker 3 So so the most important question is should I keep going to the supermarket with my cloth cloth bags? 41:58 Speaker 1 100%. 42:00 Speaker 3 And do you do that as well? 42:02 Speaker 1 We do that as well. And actually the supermarket that we have, you know, next to our home, when my kids go there, they give them the goods without like a plastic bags and they tell them, you know, your father doesn't like that. 42:16 Speaker 3 And also that, you know, when I went yesterday to that supermarket, the guy was open to it and he said, you know, I, I never thought about it, but you know, I'll think about it. So, you know, little things that give us hope, little interactions that remind us that people sometimes just don't, they don't know better. 42:32 And if you tell them different, they're willing to try. And that's true. And, and in so many different areas. So I hope this conversation will give our listeners some hope and that your hope also will be contagious. It has been for me. So I, I really want to thank you Tarek again for for joining me and sharing your story. 42:52 Speaker 1 Thank you so much for having me.

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