September 17, 2025

Danny Cohen: Letting Rage and Grief Transform Us, Not Consume Us

In today’s conversation, therapist Danny Cohen takes us into the heart of some of our most difficult emotions: grief, rage, and loss, especially in the wake of October 7th. How do we meet these emotions without shutting down? How do we allow them to transform us rather than consume us?
Danny Cohen is a profoundly thoughtful soul whose work integrates Jewish wisdom, contemplative practice, and trauma-informed therapy. Danny has spent years guiding individuals and communities through the deepest terrains of healing. He leads retreats—among others, for caregivers and therapists of trauma survivors—helping those who hold space for others find their own inner refuge.
Danny’s approach is informed by his studies in mindfulness, somatic psychotherapy, and communication-based healing modalities. He has trained in nonviolent communication, Hakomi mindfulness-based somatic therapy, organic intelligence, and transformative change work.
In this conversation, we speak about tribalism, and the role of spiritual practice in holding pain without being overwhelmed by it. He also shares a remarkable experience with a German man who carried deep anti-Semitism—an encounter that shifted in an unexpected and powerful way. Additionally, he takes me through some therapeutic exercises, offering a glimpse into his deeply restorative approach. Throughout, he weaves beautiful teachings from Jewish spiritual texts into our exploration of resilience and healing.

0:19 Intro With anger, there's really an invitation or pointing out of the importance of anger as protest and the message of that protest being received if we listen to it, not try and figure it out. But if it's like if that, you know, anger of that rage could speak, what, what would it say? 0:38 And then it might say we are here to live or we will not be killed. And I just noticed, you know, when I say the words, then a deeper breath comes for me when I hear myself say those words. So there's then a feedback that happens and and the message, whatever it may be of, of protest needs to be heard by ourselves and experience being heard by another. 1:12 Speaker 1 Welcome to RAW, a podcast where we confront the complexities of war from the inside out. I'm Manukh, a journalist, author, yoga teacher, and meditation practitioner. RAW, or War Spelled Backwards, symbolizes how many of us feel in the face of the Israel Gaza conflict, exposed, vulnerable, and seeking understanding. 1:35 Here, we don't just discuss the external battles, but dive deep into our internal struggles, examining how this violence has shaken our very core. Join me in conversations with philosophers, psychologists, and spiritual leaders as we explore how to navigate these painful times with wisdom and resilience, finding guidance for our own paths through this raw, unfiltered world. 2:06 Today I have the deep privilege of speaking with Danny Cohen, a wise, kind, and profoundly thoughtful soul whose work integrates Jewish wisdom, contemplative practice, and trauma informed therapy. Danny has spent years guiding individuals and communities through the deepest terrains of healing. 2:26 He leads retreats, among others, for caregivers and therapists of trauma survivors, helping those who hold space for others find their own inner refuge. In today's conversation, he takes us into the heart of some of our most difficult emotions, grief, rage and loss, especially in the wake of October 7th. 2:47 How do we meet these emotions without shutting down? How do we allow them to transform us rather than consume us? Danny's approach is deeply informed by his studies and mindfulness, somatic psychotherapy and communication based healing modalities. 3:04 He trained extensively in nonviolent communication, Hakomi, mindfulness based somatic therapy, organic intelligence and transformative change work. I'm sure you will find his presence as grounding and illuminating as I did. 3:19 And now here's my conversation with Danny Cohen. Danny, welcome. 3:26 Speaker 2 I know. Thank you. 3:27 Speaker 1 You wanted to take me through a kind of meditation process, and I'm always open to that. I don't know what my listeners will make of it, but if you're still up for that, I am too. 3:39 Speaker 2 Yeah, happily, I'll share with you or invite you into one of my favorite meditations, which is also something that I often teach on retreat. And it's actually an interpersonal kind of meditation. 3:54 I call it the Feelings welcome game. And it's very simple. Just name in one word what feeling is alive in the moment. And then I kind of attuned to and and echo that back and I add with a word, but also ideally with my energy, with my inner orientation welcome. 4:15 And then we just see what comes next, and we just do that, you know, for a minute. Yeah, you like to try? 4:20 Speaker 1 Sure. Yeah, I can try. Just kind of hearing you say that, though. Changes. Yeah, right. Changes what already arises in me. Yeah. Yeah. So wow, this is a big one. This immediately arises in me when you say that. 4:37 And it's. It's grief. Grief. 4:40 Speaker 2 Welcome. 4:42 Speaker 1 Should I say thank you? 4:44 Speaker 2 You can just say what comes next. 4:46 Speaker 1 A little bit of embarrassment. 4:48 Speaker 2 Yeah, a little bit of embarrassment welcome. 4:52 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think more grief. 4:55 Speaker 2 More grief welcome. 4:59 Speaker 1 Kind of ping pongs within between the two, you know, there is, there is grief and. And Oh my God, there's so many reasons for grief, yes. In life in general, yes. And in our geopolitical nightmare of the moment, Right. 5:17 And by sharing grief, I I feel immediate embarrassment for having kind of shared, you know, so it ping pongs between the two. Yeah. 5:28 Speaker 2 Yeah. And there's something I think like quite insightful and quite widespread in the phenomenology of of what you just shared. Also want to name my gratitude for your being willing to to meet me with that kind of honesty and vulnerability. 5:45 And that's like something about the nakedness of our emotions not being, you know, move on, May love or like, obviously welcome, you know, indicated by the embarrassment or sometimes shame or that it's not even on the table that we can say how we are and not apologize for it, you know, but actually have the sense, oh, we can say that how we are and it'll be held with us. 6:09 Yeah. Like in Pirkea vote, it says have me Kabel Kol ha, Adam Bessevo Panignia fought to welcome. And we can translate it either as every person or a person in their entirety with a warm countenance. And that's often what's missing. 6:24 Speaker 1 Tell us a little bit about you since the beginning of this war, which currently is in ceasefire, but which is still so deeply immersively in and around us. 6:39 Trauma healing work in Germany Strikingly, I was due to fly to Germany on October 8th for a week of collective trauma healing work. So what a time, you know, to to have that. 6:57 And I ended up going on October 9th and it was a real blessing for me to be in the space with the community who I had been walking a path with and training and that kind of work with and to feel really privileged, you know, to have then and in general in my life, to have had over the last year and a half a lot of resource to help me feel and metabolize what's come up for me those first months. 7:26 There was also like really a, a seeking of how can I find a meaningful way to, to contribute some way to offer, you know, my skills and training as a psychotherapist, as a, as a meditation teacher. Yeah, Found some ways and didn't find some ways. 7:42 And then was fortunate to have some time to resource myself and then, you know, come back in a way where I've had more capacity. And then we started also a whole program, which I'm sure we'll talk about, you know, on different days and different times of day and times of week. 7:59 I, I have different experiences, but yeah, there's been a huge, huge amount of grief and a fear and worry and yeah, and sometimes just seeing how clearly there are multiple levels of reality alive at the same time. 8:17 And there can be beauty and joy and meaningfulness and inspiration. Not through ignoring or suppressing the other layers which are layers of of brokenness and sometimes importantly being the the rich soil to be grounded in in meeting those layers. 8:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, I too am deeply, profoundly grateful that I had had amassed some of the resources of mindfulness and and compassion. And you know, when October 7th happened and I know it deeply helped me not in the first days after the attack when I regressed to the most kind of fearful tribal kind of amygdala, reptilian brained self. 9:14 And I think it's also because I was with three young children. But I, I, I then left, I left the country for three weeks and, and I was able to then use the tools that I learned in order to calm my nervous system. 9:30 And, you know, I think so much has already happened that people forget how much in those first days, weeks, our, our nervous systems were so hyped up, you know, in the most primal, primal levels. And that still has ripple effects. 9:49 And so tell us about the work that you do in the tools that you employ. 9:53 Tools for Trauma Work You have first of all, such a rich suitcase of tools that I'm sure you can whip out at different times from nonviolent communication to Hakomi method based psychotherapy, meditation, et cetera. 10:10 So tell me like the tools with that history and already deep look into trauma work. What do you feel most helped you in this past year and some and what have you turned to most in order to help others deal with and process their trauma, their burnout, their, you know, the stress of living in this very, very charged region for such a prolonged time? 10:39 Speaker 2 I'd say what's most helped me is relationships sometimes in a professional context with therapists, different kinds of therapists, psychotherapy, Craniosacral, you know, which is a very gentle touch based modality which really can bring deep regulation to the nervous system and friend relationships as well. 11:04 People who whose quality of attunement and space for emotions I really trust, I believe or hold as a working hypothesis that there are not feelings which are too big or too much to process when we're met with precise attuned accompaniment. 11:32 I think it's quite rare and I think many of us didn't get that, you know, in our formative years. So the way that those emotions live in US is as overwhelming because they're held in often an invisible sheath of aloneness and with the kind of frozen trance state of, you know, age 2 or infancy or four at those ages when we really need another person's warm attuned presence and prefrontal cortex to to help us Co regulate. 12:03 Speaker 1 I wouldn't say the majority, but such a huge percentage of the population. And I'm sure my listeners as well. You know, we grew up with generations of parents who, who, who very often didn't have the emotional tools and, and came from their own trauma, especially, you know, in in our tribe. 12:23 And you know, a lot of people like me might have been a one year old, 2 year old, 3 year old dealing with various issues if not dealing with direct trauma at home. And you know, the basic human need is, like you said, Co regulate, which means generally to regulate with an older, wiser, calmer being who just holds your hand and says, you know, I know it hurts, but I'm here. 12:48 I know it's terrifying, but I'm here, you know, not with like immediate solutions, but just a presence. And and when you don't have that, you create all sorts of mechanisms to survive. And for so many people, it's just to shove those emotions as deep down as possible into your subconscious, you know, and that turns into adults, which look for methods to forget. 13:11 And, and it can be a dysregulated nervous system. So when a dysregulated nervous system meets an extraordinarily biblically dysregulated event like October 7th or like war in general, it, it has a very, very hard time digesting it right? 13:33 And, and, and, and not kind of being buried in even deeper layers of coping mechanisms, which often don't serve us anymore as adults. So, so when, when you treated people in, in the last year, year and a half or aside from, from, you know, being a compassionate presence, which I think is 90% of it. 13:56 The power of organic intelligence And you may be I'm, I'm mistaken, but what you know what, what tools have you employed and do all of them work on the majority of people or is it really a kind of individual LED approach? 14:10 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a good question. I've certainly been really supported by my training in a modality called Organic Intelligence, which is a trauma healing modality that developed out of something called somatic experiencing, which is a bit better known. 14:25 And, and there's a very precise understanding in in OI, in organic intelligence of people as living systems and what system, how systems get stuck and how systems stabilize and become self organizing or emergent. 14:41 And there's an especial focus there on what they call orientation. Orientation defined as connecting to the environment through the senses. So if you want you and anyone who's listening who's not driving, I can just do a little experiment and just let your eyes go wherever they want to go. 15:01 Perhaps noticing colors, shades of light and shadow, even texture. And at some point the eyes will be drawn towards something or notice something that's pleasant to look at. And pleasant, I like to say, includes ones and twos on the scale of one to 10, like, oh, that texture, that color. 15:22 And we can just let the eyes rest there, engaged with with that visual object, interested. And then you can notice the sensations of pleasantness, even if they're very subtle where they're felt in the body. 15:43 And then don't have to do anything. Just let those sensations be felt. Notice how it feels there. And notice also how does it feel in the rest of the body receiving the impulse of those sensations? 16:00 And we can let the sensations be in the background and bring attention out again. Yeah. What do you notice? 16:10 Speaker 1 First of all, I want to say that it's quite, you know, it's, it's, it's different on a podcast to be LED twice already. And I want to tell my listeners that it's fantastic if you did the exercise and also, you know, totally fine if you want to come back to it later. It is a really cool exercise, but it's, you know, it can be hard to to get into it. 16:29 Speaker 2 Just to put that in a in a bit of a framework from polyvagal theory, which has really informed me and, and my work for years, but especially in in our context. 16:40 Polyvagal Theory So polyvagal theory is a theory developed by Professor Stephen Porges about how the nervous system works. And he talks about this I, you know, you can think about it like a kind of traffic light. We have basically like 3 different operating systems. You know, there's the free system, there's the fight flight, and then there is the social engagement system, red, yellow, green, And which, which one of those states we're in depends on this faculty he calls neuroception, which is the brain's perception of how safe we are. 17:13 And he says the brain or our whole Organism, But yeah, the brain really is scanning always in three directions to check out are we safe or not? It scans our surroundings. That's one reason why consciously letting the eyes go where they want to go can actually help the brain register. 17:33 Oh, the the, the truth of current surroundings is actually benign or relatively benign. Scan the the body, there's sensations going up the vagus nerve, the spinal cord, through the insula into the brain, communicating something about how we're doing and the interpersonal space. 17:58 Checking out Am I safe? Are you friend? Are you a foe? Are you a threat? And what happens with trauma is that it colors our experience in a way where then our nervous system is actually responding to something from the past as if it's present. 18:19 Yeah. So let's say something really intense happens like the attacks on October 7th and the feelings and sensations, the whole kind of high activation around that keeps reverberating in our bodies because most of us didn't get enough support in really processing that to completion, coming back to to regulation. 18:44 So those sensations are still happening in the body and that means the body is sending signals to the brain of alarm of threat. And there's really interesting studies also from neuroscience about left hemisphere and and right hemisphere of the brain. 19:00 So when those sensations are coming up, the brain needs to make sense out of them. So we, we make up a story or we find evidence to support an interpretation of why it makes sense to be alarmed. And then we act in a way which tends, tends to fuel that. 19:17 So of course, sometimes there are real threats and then it's really good to be activated so we can, you know, do what's needed. That's helpful. That's not trauma, that's survival. That's a that's good. But when we're not in those scenarios, you know, and of course there's relative degrees, right? 19:37 But like sitting here, you know, in the studio, there's relative safeness. And so it's really helpful often times before going in any explicit way towards traumatic material or overwhelming emotions, if it's possible to 1st land an orientation. 19:56 So the nervous system really is calibrated in a more accurate. Response to the truth of of here and now and so like in my in the retreats I've been teaching for instance, I've really been using those three directions to guide the practices that I teach. 20:14 So oftentimes, you know, if people think mindfulness right away, like close my eyes and bring attention inside. But if, you know, if inside is on fire and I don't have enough presents to to tend that, then it's actually just going to fuel that fire to bring attention inside. 20:30 I'll feel more anxious. So that's, that's not a good practice if that's what's going on. And it's great. Like I sometimes say, you know, if you're drowning in the pool and you're next to the side of the pool, just put your hand on the side. You know you don't, you're like, if it's so intense inside, don't sit with your eyes closed, open them, bring your attention into something benign or in this case like we did to something pleasant. 20:53 And then you notice the sensations of pleasantness. So then the that is the signal that's going to the brain or that's getting amplified through attention because what we pay attention to gets amplified. So when we pay attention dafka to pleasant sensations. 21:10 Oh, I did this once years ago with a woman who had sexual trauma and not in as a client, but just some kind of mini intro workshop. I didn't know that at the time. And she was able, just like that, to have an unusual sense of safety in her body because we created an opportunity to feel a gentle pleasantness. 21:33 And that gentleness is also important, that we're not seeking intensity. And in organic intelligence, there's also a big emphasis on weaning ourselves from the addiction to intensity. And then there's the, the interpersonal work and network. 21:48 I'm informed by a number of kinds of more attachment based therapeutic work, ADP, primary attachment therapy, and a lot by the work and example of of Thomas Hubel, who's teacher of mine and of leader in the world of trauma healing. 22:05 And, and Thomas often talks about, I think he actually brings a quote from from Dan Siegel, who one of the founders of interpersonal neurobiology, this basic experience that we need to have relationally of I feel you feeling me. 22:21 And Genesis says it's not good for a person to be alone. So then there's a quality of togetherness which is inherently resourcing. So as far as you know, I've been teaching these retreat for therapists who've been on the front lines of of the trauma work. 22:38 Often, you know, they come in so overwhelmed themselves. And then we're doing a lot of these kinds of practices, you know, to really be able to metabolize or what's there and to restore the sense of safety and, and OKness. 22:56 Speaker 1 And tell me about the the connection you know, your healing work and your psychotherapy work and your interest in in Jewish spirituality. 23:06 The connection between healing and Jewish spirituality I find that for a lot of young Jewish people, they are not necessarily finding answers for their kind of spiritual needs in, in, in Judaism. And they often go and, and look for it in other lineages, whether it's Buddhism or, or eventually go to some kind of, you know, atheism or, or, or just kind of spiritually lost. 23:35 What have you found in Judaism that that you feel really compliments your you know, your love of of healing and, and and sharing in a compassionate and and caring way? 23:51 Speaker 2 Well, when I hear that question, something stirs in my heart and that is the beginning of the answer. Before I can tell you what, what are the words that go with that? 24:07 But there's, you know, there is a teaching that I love from the OR Anaim, the Chernobylur Rebbe, one of the Hasidic masters, who mentions a verse from the book of Proverbs that says something like that, like the tongue is like the quill of a scribe. 24:25 And he says in the same way that, you know, a quill needs to be dunked in an inkwell in order to write, otherwise it just scratches on the parchment. So to the tongue needs to be dunked in the well of the heart in order to to speak, you know, like really living words. 24:43 Otherwise it's just grating. And so for one, that's just what I'm trying to practice in a, in a moment of speaking, not just answers, but something which is alive and dimensional. 25:01 And I think that's also, you know, part of the estrangement from our tradition is that it's lost that kind of for many people and in many places that embodied dimensional lived experiential rootedness. 25:18 So that, for instance, you know, notions about divinity, but become just kind of abstract theology or notions of, of faith as belief. But not in the sense of like the prophet says, that the whole earth would be filled with a consciousness of divinity in the way that the water fills the sea. 25:43 The water doesn't fill the sea in the abstract way it's wet, you know, and or like in in the book of Job, he says that through my my flesh, I will see or behold the the divine. 26:04 And this is where I think that the the technologies of healing from whichever modalities or traditions that come that that restore our ability to to feel, to be alive, to know, to be intimate, to to know in a more integrated way. 26:25 They are like the enzymes which make the luminous teachings. You know of those kinds of quotes Bioavailable. 26:39 Speaker 1 If you're enjoying this conversation, don't forget to subscribe to RAW on your favorite podcast platform. Leave a review and share it with someone who might find it meaningful. You can also explore more about the show and subscribe to my newsletter at with anuke.com. 26:59 I really meet extraordinary people on this podcast and, and it's people who very often, you know, have their own history of, of suffering of trauma. Not always. It can also be people who just by virtue of having been so deeply nourished as children, just have this very, very deep, rich, large ability to hold space for others, you know, or people who, like I said, through their own trauma, have really done a, a very deep journey in, in healing themselves. 27:34 And then ultimately all these people I find are led to wanting to share those tools with others. So having said that, I, you know, I meet these people and then I, I always, I always have that question. 27:50 How our identities are impacted by the current environment Ultimately, you are, you know, you're deeply spiritual. You are engaged in in helping others in, you know, probably seeking really in your heart, really seeking peace and compassion and love. 28:08 And at the same time, you're also, you know, you're, you're a person with an identity and that person. And, you know, in your case, isn't in my case, you know, you're Jewish, you're Israeli, you're male, you know, and, and so I'm wondering to what extent you feel that those identities are, are impacted by the current environment in which, you know, depending on where we come from, depending on which family we were brought into, brought up into or which kind of cultural environment we find ourselves in. 28:44 We might, we might deeply feel ourselves as either being deeply victimized and all of us feel deeply victimized by what happened on October 7th, by the ensuing and resurgence of anti-Semitism around the world. 29:01 And at the same time, some of us might or or might not consciously feel a certain guilt for, you know, the response of, of our country, of our people to the violence about. 29:17 So I'm just wondering, to what extent do you feel impacted by all these things? And to what extent do you feel that you sometimes regress into a place that is either either deeply, perhaps tribal or or or even, you know, somewhat tribal and kind of viewing, you know, the US versus them or whether your journey allows you to kind of stay in that place? 29:45 Was it? Which is a little bit more removed from all of that and which just sees and feels the suffering everywhere? 29:55 Speaker 2 Yeah. One thing I would say is like an intention in my larger orientation and practice is to be honest and responsible in relation to my experience. 30:12 The Importance of Honesty and Responsibility So if feelings or experiences are coming up, I want to be very wary of a kind of bypass, whether it's a spiritual bypass to go into, you know, so-called higher places or other, you know, other kinds. 30:29 But actually to meet what's there as we started off our conversation with a welcome, but welcome from a mature place and perspective doesn't mean, ah, yes, now you will control my behavior. And I remembered really meaningful experience, just as you asked your question, about seven years ago when I was participating in a collective trauma training and there were a number of Germans involved. 30:59 And I, I won't go into the, the whole long story, but I, I had a very powerful exploration over the course of about an hour with a couple German men where I was really speaking the voice of the deeply innocent woundedness, you know, of the Jewish experience in the Holocaust. 31:22 And one of them at least was able to really channel some of the kind of German collective shadow. But because, you know, he was not fully identified with it. 31:37 He was, you know, not there was no actual threat in the room, but he could channel that place of kind of hate and really like this raw anti-Semitism that took him really to a quite an, you know, an intense place. 32:00 But what really supported us in that was seeing that through the these lenses, which I've been talking about, of, of trauma and response to, to overwhelm and a certain perspective from both organic intelligence and from Thomas Hubel, that as Steve Hoskinson from, from OI says, trauma is unintegrated resource. 32:27 Or as Thomas says, there's always an intelligence in the reaction, even if it's not, you know, manifesting on the surface. So what could be the intelligence of this guy's kind of supercilious, almost rageful or wrathful hate, You know, as we tracked that somatically, like really stayed with him, allowing him to really go feel into that experience. 32:54 He was actually moving away from his own vulnerability and into a sense of, you know, perhaps a pseudo sense, but experientially a sense of superiority. Yeah, or, and or but through superiority of safety. And when we shifted the focus from the, you know, the superiority to the somatic or bodily experience of safety or being less vulnerable, then he could actually feel that and integrate that resource experientially. 33:22 That helped him settle in his nervous system and come back into a more grounded and integrated place where then instead of the superiority and anti-Semitism, he could actually say to me in a very powerful way, I respect you and I want you to live and I want you to live well. 33:44 That is a very powerful experience to have, you know, not to make him bad for that to for us to be able to stay in enough presence to integrate that and then to come not through bypassing not through him thinking, you know, as now a kind of responsible German say, I don't know I can't I can't feel that that's how the shadow stays in the shadow. 34:06 And I think we need to do the same thing that when this kind of tribal regression comes, or hate comes in a way where we're losing touch with the humanity of others, we need to include that. 34:22 Not act from it, but find the spaces where we can really be accompanied in what that's trying to do for us. And then in coming back into a more integrated sense of being more in touchedness with the fullness of of who we are and more able to be in touch with others. 34:46 Speaker 1 So I want to pull that apart a little bit because I feel like that's, that's really important. And it kind of goes to the, the one of the central topics that I, that I'm interested in in this podcast, which is that I think this war, you know, brought out things that are in our human nature anyway. 35:07 And specifically in the kind of Jewish Israeli story, it brought out the kind of, you know, reliving of a certain kind of trauma, which perhaps a lot of us unconsciously had embodied. And in addition to that, because of the unbelievable violence of that day and, and then the deep kind of polarization which is created by media and by social media specifically. 35:33 I, I realized early on that so many of us were in such a place of defense of victimization, of hatred, of, of, of, of wanting to, to destroy, of wanting to hurt, You know, whether it is through messages on social media, kind of just this extraordinary violence which continues to be perpetuated, whether in words or, or in our own minds or in our bodies or in thought. 36:01 And what I'm interested in what you're saying is that, for example, for for this German, you didn't try to bypass that because what a lot of us try to do is either justify those feelings by going to look for reasons to feel them and then act on them or to kind of like bury them, you know, in some kind of like shame. 36:23 They're not there. You know, I'm ashamed of who I am. I'm ashamed of being, you know, Israeli. I mean, people go in different directions. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about when you say there is, there is a wisdom in those in those primary primal emotions as well. 36:42 The Wisdom in Primal Emotions What do you mean by, you know, being with them And and what is the wisdom that they can offer offer us? 36:49 Speaker 2 Yeah. So first of all, I think it's it's often important to do that with some skilled accompaniment, somebody else who has enough space and presence to perhaps accompany us in in that process unless you're particularly resourced or practiced, but perhaps then Even so. 37:10 So let's take for instance, the feeling of rage or anger. So often times, you know, when we when I say those words right away, we might have images of certain kinds of behavior, you know, or like a screaming or a yelling or perhaps acts of violence. 37:32 But that's different than exactly as you were saying, like the raw primary emotion or or energy as it arises in US. And this is one of the ways when we have like an established practice where it can really serve us in these intense moments to be able to to discern between these different threads of of experience and not to just be taken over by them. 37:56 So feeling that rage, perhaps, you know, like down in your core and rising, you know, through your belly. That also is, you know, mobilizing their sympathetic arousal that comes with that. There's the thoughts, you know, that right away go about them, you know, but there's a, there's a raw energy and there's a power in that which can be felt bodily and that can be helpful. 38:21 There may be a, a deep vulnerability or a grief below that or alongside that. And it might be that first we need to feel that kind of power in our bodies to feel like organismically stable enough to touch something which is more vulnerable or more likely to fragment without that kind of integrated strength and sense of agency. 38:48 Sometimes that kind of anger, you know, or rage comes actually to restore our agency, you know, when there's been a violation, when there's been, you know, a violation of choice or boundaries. And then and, and here I draw especially on insights from from norm, the neuro affective relational method or model, which is an approach to developmental trauma healing. 39:13 And there is an A special, I think wisdom and insight there in relation to grief and and anger as primary emotions, each of which could be a secondary emotion kind of covering the other. But with anger, there is really an, an invitation or pointing out of the importance of or of anger as protest and the message of that protest being received or it's that anger is trying to do something. 39:43 And for instance, in in this context that we're speaking about that anger, if we listen to it, not try and figure it out. But if it's like, if that, you know, anger of that rage could speak, what, what would it say? And then it might say. 40:01 We are here to live or we, we will not be killed. Yeah. And I just noticed, you know, when I say the words, then a deeper breath comes for me when I hear myself say those words. So there's then a feedback that happens and and the message, whatever it may be of of protest, anger needs to be heard by ourselves and to be experienced being heard by another. 40:30 Speaker 1 Which brings me back to the to, to, to the understanding that that anger and rage, you know, we're, we evolved those feelings because they are, you know, they serve us. They actually, they, they have huge wisdom if they are listened to. 40:46 And I think that perhaps that's, you know, something which, which in all societies and also in Israeli society, how great would it be if we could teach, you know, young men, soldiers, you know, to to wisely listen to their anger because anger can, can be used in a very, you know, in a wise way. 41:06 I love this idea of the wise warrior, the wise warrior, you know, it is the warrior who knows when to put their their sword down and knows when to use it. And I think it's, it's not just for for soldiers, it's, it's for all of us to be able to listen to that anger. 41:22 And then know that sometimes it also it hides feelings which are even harder for us to feel, which like you said, might be grief or fear or terror or a deep sense of loneliness or abandonment. And I think the post October 7th kind of touched on all these parts which none of us like to feel, you know, the kind of abandonment by the world and the, the, the pointing the finger at, you know, our supposed vadnais, etcetera, etcetera. 41:52 Speaker 2 Yeah. And just to pick up on on that, this is actually where I think the lens from Nonviolent Communication is also really insightful, because the whole frame of Vadnais and of lenses of dehumanization are ways that anger and rage very readily become violent and destructive as opposed to protective. 42:16 When we're running an operating system which is so ubiquitously looking through lenses of right, wrong, good, bad, and then deserve, we very quickly stop doing this essential Jewish thing of not doing to the other what's hateful unto us. 42:34 And we justify doing that by notions of deserve, which rests on notions of vadnais and wrongness. 42:40 Speaker 1 Like the, you know, no one's innocent on, you know, in Gaza, all the Palestinians, you know this and that they're Islamic fundamentalism. They're all, you know, basically evil. You know, that the kind of story of the which I think, you know, that's also part that the media played and you know, I know it's not your field, but in and how little we actually saw the images of the suffering. 43:03 And you know, because, because I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm was not born here. I read media in French or in English and it's a completely different reality. You know, it's also it's, it's very, very hard to to to feel the humanity on the other side if it's abstract, if we don't see the suffering of the of the children who are alone and terrified and they don't know where their parents are or, you know, and they're they're wounded, etcetera. 43:28 I think that if this society could actually look in the eyes of those children and still make decisions from a wise place about how to respond. And, and today I think I don't, I don't judge the, I don't judge the responses anymore. 43:46 You know, I, I don't know anymore what was right, what was wrong, You know, I don't know. But what I do know is that very often, especially of course, in our in our leaders, in our governments, in our politics, in our media, so many of our responses come from a place of, of, of not wanting to look at our own vulnerabilities and at our own difficulties and wanting immediately to go into that bucket of we are the ultimate great ones and you know, we deserve to live and they don't etcetera. 44:21 And you know, those are messages that we heard. So yeah, thank you for for, for going into that. 44:29 How to work with burnout You you let a retreat for caregivers about how to, to to work with their burnouts. There are so many, so many deeply traumatized, deeply wounded people in Israeli society that caregivers who generally are people who naturally, you know, want to go out and help. 44:49 Many people kind of ran out the house on those first few days and have not, you know, metaphorically come back and are out there helping people. And, you know, a lot of them experience deep kind of burnout, maybe secondary trauma. 45:06 What are some of the things that you do in your in your retreats that you think those people could use? 45:12 Speaker 2 We've actually had four cohorts and have a fifth one next week of a retreat for therapists, caregivers and it's been exactly as as you described in many, many, I would say most of those folks showing up really, really burnt out. 45:29 Some of them who lost family members on October 7th or in the war. Many of them who are, you know, really are working directly with the with the trauma and who have been basically on on duty since since then. 45:49 And I think that also often times does play into a certain personality type who's inclined to take care of others before before themselves, which can work for short term, but in the long, longer term leads to burnout because we're not we're not built to live constantly in sympathetic arousal. 46:08 That evolved to be an occasional kind of, you know, stress is helpful in an occasional way, but not in a constant way. So we've been offering these really meditation retreats, but very trauma informed meditation retreats down in in the desert and out of van. 46:25 And for one thing, just going down there is healing. You know to be in that space to be in in the desert, to be in conditions which are comfortable, which are nourishing, to eat good healthy food, to be in a space where even though some people we do offer them in silence with some interpersonal practice and a lot of accompaniment, but without telephones. 46:49 And then we we teach various practices like those I shared earlier that are firstly designed to to help the nervous system settle to come out of the kind of internal echo Chamber of threat activation, sympathetic arousal or overwhelm, freeze, shutdown. 47:09 We do kind of Jewish chanting each morning, which also brings a certain a certain energy. And there's a mix between, you know, people being in the silence and being able to finally have space for themselves and to give them the practice tools to tend that space to kind of restore their body, mind, heart, nervous system to, to a home that's not on fire, a home that's actually good to, to come home to. 47:41 And there is a sense of yahad, of togetherness, you know, in that and kind of being in this rhythm over, over the days. There's rest time and there's practice time. And there's some some teachings. 47:58 And we explore a variety of practices. Yeah, for stabilizing, regulating the nervous system, for meeting the emotions more directly in next week's retreat. We're actually experimenting. A friend and colleague of mine who comes from the world of grief ceremonies is coming to to teach with me. 48:17 So we'll make some more explicit space for grief in a different kind of way. And then also some interpersonal practices which also like we did, which also tend to to help, really help people really regulate. And actually what many of them say, one of the things they most take with them is this practice of feelings. 48:36 Welcome, which we can practice with ourselves, we can practice with others, with clients. We could practice it in a formal way. Sometimes some of my friends will just say, or we'll just say, Oh yeah, let's do feelings welcome. Or I'll say that, you know, but but it can also be a kind of orientation, not necessarily a formal practice of, you know, how do we meet the feelings that are are passing through? 48:59 Speaker 1 If people are listening and, and you know, don't know where to start, they might be in the kind of not only the, the, the, the war race, but the rat race of, of everyday life in Israel. Where do they start if they don't have a meditation practice and they don't have a therapist and, you know, perhaps parents don't have time to go on a week long silent, you know, phoneless retreat. 49:27 What do you think is the kind of like everyday thing that people can do to feel more stable in this very, very unstable world? 49:36 Speaker 2 Well, for one, like through our high level, we have a lot of online resources which don't require leaving home Zoom daily guided short practices. And I think that's great, especially to get started in in any kind of practice is to have some some guidance for those who are interested or available coming on retreat, whether it's a shorter retreat or a week long retreat or therapists or, you know, caregivers can come on that that retreat. 50:05 I think those are those are great opportunities. And I think making it something fixed, you know, if like you're available for one of those Zoom times that we do or that somebody else offers, like putting that actually on your calendar and having it be a protected space. 50:23 Or deciding, you know, on your walk to the car or your walk to the office or sitting in the car on the bus that you're going to be doing something which is nourishing yourself with your attention. It could just be attention to the surroundings or maybe you like this interpersonal exploration and you have a friend and you even what's amazing about that practice is you do it for three minutes in each direction. 50:45 It can be as powerful as like, you know, a couple hours of, of individual practice. Yeah. And you know, 1 little thing that people can do in the day-to-day is notice moments of completion. 51:00 You know, like we'll finish this, this interview and then there's a moment of completion. And usually what many of us do is like rush to the next thing. You know, I finish one session with a client and then like right away, jump on WhatsApp or whatever, you know, do the next thing. 51:17 And then there's actually a way we don't let our nervous systems really rest, savor, deactivate, go into the the yin energy. And when I do that, it's, it's deeply nourishing. 51:32 And that can take, you know, 20 or 30 seconds. And I think there is occasional times of emergency when we don't have that. But most of the time we do have that and we're just in a habit. 51:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to say for me also, it's, it's a, a habit. It's a habit that that does take a little bit of commitment to, to get used to. But for me, because you know, it's like 3 young children and being in a loud environment, I've kind of just intuitively, I don't even think about it anymore. 52:08 But just so often throughout the day when they're screaming or whatever it is, I just look up for a second or you know, I'll walk by in Tel Aviv and there's all the dog shit and there's all the construction. 52:23 But there's also like a flower. And it's so simple and you know, people talk about this all the time, but it really does make such a difference. It just you, you know, it's being in that kind of larger state of being versus that kind of small frustrated, you know, story of, you know, my, my kids are like this, or I'm like this or this is, you know, this sucks or whatever. 52:48 And, and it really for, for, for me at least those kind of small moments that I have incorporated for years. But they are so powerful when you kind of aggregate them and and you know they're there, it's always there. Is there anything else that you would like to leave us with? 53:05 Maybe something that inspires you or something you just love at. 53:10 Speaker 2 Least one more thing about in response to the last question, which is something that we can do every day along the way to express our appreciation. That's like a renewable energy source that often we don't activate. And to be specific about that, yeah, there's a kind of like delight and something heart touching about that. 53:29 Yeah. When we make a habit of expressing our appreciation in a precise way, we are more in touch with the gift of it and it nurtures our relationships and brings a kind of resilience and and richness into them as well. 53:42 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it's a really important point. It just shifts. It shifts your entire experience, your energy and, and, and then your relation to the world. So I think that's a wonderful, amazing practice that is so easy to do is just to remember what we're grateful for and we can allow ourselves to be in that energy. 54:05 Thank you so much for for coming in, for being vulnerable, for being open for that. Thank you.

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