CONNECT
LISTEN TO AUDIO PODCAST

The Science of Conflict with Eran Halperin: Why We Think the Way We Do in Times of War,

In this episode of Raw, I speak with Professor Eran Halperin, a leading expert on conflict resolution, political psychology, and the emotional dynamics that shape intergroup relations. As Israel grapples with the aftermath of October 7 and the ongoing war, Professor Halperin brings his deep expertise to unpack the psychological forces at play—how fear, anger, and trauma shape public opinion, decision-making, and the possibility (or impossibility) of reconciliation.

We discuss the cognitive and emotional barriers to peace, what history teaches us about societies in prolonged conflict, and whether there is a path forward in times of such deep division. This is a conversation that cuts through the noise, offering a nuanced, research-based perspective on one of the most complex and painful moments in modern history.

  • 0:19 Intro People in Israel felt like they're really under existential threat. I've been studying the Israeli society for more than 20 years. I've never, never seen real indications for the fact that, you know, people are On October 10th, when we asked people if Israel would exist in a week from now, many people, more than 40%, said they're not sure. 0:42 This. These are dramatic numbers. When we think about the psychology of a society, it's one thing to say we're under threat and there are some forces outside that won't hurt us. That's one thing versus saying I'm not sure that we will survive in a week from now. 0:59 That's that's a dramatic shift in in the mindset. 1:16 Speaker 2 Welcome to RAW Podcast, where we confront the complexities of war from the inside out. I'm Manukh, a journalist, author, yoga teacher, and meditation practitioner. RAW or War spelled backwards symbolizes how many of us feel in the face of the Israel Gaza conflict, exposed, vulnerable and seeking understanding. 1:40 Speaker 3 Here. 1:40 Speaker 2 We don't just discuss the external battles, but dive deep into our internal struggles, examining how this violence has shaken our very core. Join me in conversations with philosophers, psychologists, and spiritual leaders as we explore how to navigate these painful times with wisdom and resilience, finding guidance for our own paths through this raw, unfiltered world. 2:09 Speaker 4 Today I speak with Professor Iran Halperin, a leading expert on conflict resolution, political psychology, and the emotional dynamics that shape intergroup relations. As we grapple with the aftermath of October 7th and the ongoing war, Iran brings his deep expertise to unpack the psychological forces at play, how fear, anger and trauma shape public opinion, decision making, and the possibility or impossibility of reconciliation. 2:42 We discussed the cognitive and emotional barriers to peace, what history teaches us about societies and prolonged conflict, and whether there is a path forward in times of such deep division. This is a conversation that cuts through the noise, offering a nuanced, research based perspective on one of the most complex and painful moments in modern history. 3:06 Iran is a professor of psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He has advised policy makers and peace building initiatives worldwide and has published extensively in leading academic journals. 3:20 Speaker 3 Iran, welcome to the show. 3:22 How the last year has been for Iran I feel like you're one of these people that I, I, I, I. 3:26 Speaker 4 I. 3:27 Speaker 3 Should have spoken to on the, on the 1st week after the war started and on the, you know, I should have had a conversation with you once a month, but you're, you're here and I'm very excited for our conversation. I think it's a very important one. 3:42 If ever there were like a natural laboratory to be doing 1's research in this is it. I mean, it's one of the most tragic and devastating times. And, and you're, you live in Israel, you know, I assume for you, it's been tragic on so many levels, but as a researcher, this is like the extreme examples of what you have been studying in, in your profession. 4:07 So just how has the last year, I always say the last year, it's been a year and four months sometimes feels like it's been like all our lives. How has this year been for you kind of both with your professional hat on, but also like personally with the knowledge that you that you have about how our psychology affects the way we feel about conflict and and others, you know, other tribes or our own tribe within the conflict. 4:41 How Has This Year Been For You? Yeah, well, you know, it's, it's never, it's, it's always been interesting here in, in, in this area for, for political psychologists and for people who study ecology of, of conflicts. But the last 16 months were like crazy for all of us. 4:59 And, and definitely for someone who's been studying these, these, these kind of questions, I would say that I'll start on, on a very personal like note. I would say that probably the, the last 16 months were the, it's the first time in my life in which I couldn't really distinguish the personal from the professional. 5:21 And it's very, it's very clear for me that what drove me to do this research are personal things. I was, I was very seriously injured in, in Lebanon more than 25 years ago as an officer. Yeah, in the Israeli army. 5:39 And, and then, and then in, in many ways, the research enabled me like to distance myself a little bit from the actual reality. Like, I think that what a good researcher or a good scientist should do is to find ways to look at the, the reality from an external like perspective. 6:00 And, and I, I felt like for many, many years I was able to do that. And I feel like, you know, in the last 16 months, this is simply impossible, you know, as, as, as a father, 223 kids who are living here and knowing so many people, so many families were hurt and during this war and having many Palestinian friends on on the other side of this terrible war. 6:29 It's very, very, very difficult to to differentiate the personnel from the you know from the professional. 6:36 Speaker 3 Yeah, I come from the journalism background, and, you know, there is this concept of objectivity when you write a news article which never exists. We all come with our, you know, extremely unique and specific set of histories and cultures and conditioning and temperaments and DNA. 6:56 What I have found, at least for myself in the past year and a half of this war is that I noticed within myself these movements that before the war I might have been able to look from from more distance. I have been as much part as everyone of these like waves that I feel sometimes dehumanizing the other side and then and really identifying with my tribe and then sometimes the shame about that. 7:22 And so have you been able to kind of look at your own internal processes also as a researcher? 7:30 Speaker 1 Definitely. It's true on on so many different levels. I've never considered myself as an, you know, neutral or objective researcher. I mean, I've always said that don't study conflicts and violence and say, let's understand this phenomenon and I don't know, mass killing for and against, you know, let's be neutral. 7:55 I haven't been neutral about that. I mean, never. I always thought that the study of my research has a goal. The goal is, you know, both to understand the processes, but also to offer or to try and offer solutions. 8:11 And I think that one of the things that happened to me in the last 16 months is that many, many questions arise. The questions about, you know, what should I ask? What exactly do we study? Are we doing the right thing? 8:27 I think that there are, there are many, many questions. I, I don't think that there's anyone around us that didn't ask him herself or himself questions. And definitely people who study this kind of difficult, difficult questions. I will say that also on the personal level, it's the first time in, in my life in which there were days in which I didn't really want to wake up and, and go to work. 8:51 I mean, for so many years I felt like doing something so important, something, you know, for the future of my of, of my kids, for the future of this country and this and this area. But in the last 16 months, you know, we were surrounded every minute, every second with such terrible pictures, news, whatever that that you want to go somewhere and do something different. 9:17 I want to go and work on high tech or I don't know, do something that can somehow help me to disengage myself from from working with these difficult questions. But you know, that's what I do. And and and that's not the right time retire, I think. 9:31 Speaker 3 To abandon ship, yes. So let's go back to the research and and to the data. What are the main questions that you're asking now? How do they differ from what you were asking before October 7th? And what are the kind of some of the main data points that that you have discovered in in the past few months, in the past year that might be different from what people might be expecting? 9:57 The impact of the war on Israeli society That's a big question. You can come at it from from any angle. 10:01 Speaker 1 OK. So, so I will say, you know, before we start talking about that, I'll say that we studied both the Israeli and the Palestinian societies. But but I will talk now more on the part of the Israeli society when I don't have my Palestinian or Arab collaborators, I don't, I don't feel comfortable to talk about the Palestinian society during this war. 10:22 As you know, I think that it's, it's better for us to focus right now on the Israeli society. There are many interesting things to say definitely about Palestinians. My focus would be on on Israel right now. And I think that the main, the question that I've been asking myself is what would such dramatic collective trauma do to the mindset of Israelis, Jewish and Arab or Palestinian Israelis when it comes to questions regarding the, the future of the conflict, the future of the relation with the Palestinians, different solution, emotional processes. 11:00 And also what does it mean? What are the implications of that? I mean, what can we do? I mean, are there are there other specific interventions, ideas, messages, policies that can be relevant even for society? 11:15 That is definitely a society that in, in, in a state of trauma or in a state of collective trauma. And, and I would say that the results we've been collecting data every week, every week since October 7th, either in my research lab at the Hebrew University or in a chord center. 11:37 It's, it's the scientific arm and the applied arm of the kind of, of the work that we've been doing. But we have data that data points from, you know, every week starting from October 7th. And I would I would say very broadly that the picture when we look at the Israeli society is more nuanced, more complicated and to some extent surprising compared to the, you know, what we would have expected from a society that went through such dramatic trauma. 12:11 Speaker 3 When you say what we would have expected from a society that that has gone through such a large national trauma, I assume and tell me if I'm wrong, that you're saying that the regular expectation for a society that has been completely violated and so deeply terrorized. 12:29 And in every possible way, you would expect a society like that to kind of close upon itself and to to really no longer see the other side as in any way human. And to, you know, kind of go in the I talk a lot about the fight flight, freeze, the kind of like we remain in that mode of like primal survival, what I call the reptilian brain of, you know, no longer being able to access the kind of higher, more lovelier parts of our brain, which are all about compassion to to try to understand the nuance of the other right. 13:03 You would have expected that not to take place. 13:05 Speaker 1 And everything that you've just said actually happened. But if we can see the complexity and the fact that in on the top of that also other things happened that are more constructive, I would say, and these things are more surprising. 13:20 I, I try to, to describe it briefly and then, and then, and then we can talk more deeply if, if you want to delve into some parts of it. So I've been studying societies in conflict, like not just the Israeli Palestinian conflict, but conflicts around the world. 13:34 The first phase of collective trauma Usually what you see in, in in this kind of situation is you can, you can think of it as a, as a two phase kind of process. What happens to societies that go through such dramatic collective trauma is that the first phase is exactly what you've described. 13:52 Usually the first phase is radicalization, like fight flight mode. You, you've described it very nicely, But basically people are saying we have to take care of ourselves right now. We are really and people in Israel felt like they're really under existential threat. 14:12 I've been studying the Israeli society for more than 20 years. I've never, never seen real indications for the fact that, you know, people are on October 10th, when we asked people if Israel would exist in a week from now, many people, more than 40% said they're not sure. 14:34 These these are dramatic numbers. When we think about the psychology of a society, you know, it's one thing to say we're under threat and there are some forces outside that won't hurt us. That's one thing versus saying, I'm not sure that we will survive in a week from now. 14:52 That's that's a dramatic like, like like shift in in the minds. 14:57 Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, I, I, I talk about that as well, that, you know, four days after October 7th, I managed to find a flight out. I fled. I remember distinctly that feeling of of really just completely primal, not being able to to think clearly in any way, just being absolutely terrified for the survival of my children. 15:19 And I think also it was very traumatizing. Were the reports from around the world of people starting to commend Hamas and the paragliders and like, those messages tapped into our most primal, you know, probably Holocaust related evolutionary fears? 15:35 The underlying causes of the conflict So yeah, it doesn't surprise me that you saw that. 15:37 Speaker 1 And in this context, what you usually see from society is what we actually saw from in the Israeli society is rally around the flag, huge conservative shift. People went to to the right in terms of their political views. 15:52 People are basically saying you're either with us or you're our enemy. There's no no Gray area. And in that sense, a huge homogeneity of the Palestinians, all Palestinians are Hamas, no innocent people in Gaza or in the West Bank. 16:11 They're all our enemies. Levels of hatred and racism towards Arabs and Palestinians are, you know, the numbers we've never, never, never seen. And and it's still, it's still there like nothing changed in the last 16 months. And also the belief that any kind of peaceful solution to this conflict is possible is at the lowest levels that we've ever seen like. 16:37 Speaker 3 I thought you said you were going to positively supply. 16:40 Speaker 1 No, I'll go there, but get to the more optimistic side. But just to be clear about the numbers. So if usually in the last 2025 years, when we ask people, would you support peace based on two state solutions, something like that, we got between 50 to 60% generally speaking, in the last 16 months, we're talking about like 25 to 28% including Jews and Arabs within Israel. 17:09 So it means that we're talking about like 10% of the Jews. These are very, very, very low numbers, the lowest numbers ever. But then when you look historically on different societies in conflict and also the Israeli society, when you look at past of violence, so the first year or two you get this, this rally around the flag, extremism, radicalization, etcetera. 17:36 But then the second phase, usually it comes about three to five years after the trauma on the second phase, suddenly societies pause and say OK, but but next, are we going to get back to the same situation as we had has been here? 17:55 It's before October 7th. But before this round, we need to do something different. The conflict resolution literature, this phase is called like ripeness. Both sides in the conflict get to this feeling of mutual hurting statement like we're hurting each other. 18:13 There's nothing we can do. We need to change something. And and then what we usually see is, is an increase in in in pragmatism. It's not that societies become more, you know, we're not looking for harmony and peace. And they're simply saying we need to somehow protect ourselves and something doesn't work here. 18:32 So we need to do something different. But this again, according to the to the literature that I know should have happened in October 2627, that's the more or less what we saw we've been seeing in the Israeli public in the last year is that surprisingly, like many things in Israel, we should we should say that things happen much, much faster. 18:57 And in many ways these two phases happened simultaneously and among the same people, which is really, really interesting. So people, the same people that suddenly became much, much more, adopted much more negative views of Palestinians, decrease in trust, increase in hate view of of all Palestinians as as one, all these very, very negative things at the same time became much more pragmatic about solutions to the Israeli Palestinian country. 19:33 And that's fascinating. 19:35 Speaker 3 Iran, I want to make sure that I understand, you know, when you say that these things like rally around the flag and you know, like complete like we can call it dehumanization because you know, seeing Palestinians as a monolithic kind of population that all wants to destroy Jews, etcetera. 19:51 The Nuance of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict When you say that's, that's negative, is it because, you know, you have some kind of like ideological desire for Israeli society to embrace peace? Or is it because you think that solutions are best reached when we are able to look at the nuance of, you know, of both of our societies, of ourselves and of and of the other side? 20:18 Speaker 1 First of all, as as an immediate reaction to what happened on October 7th, I don't think that it's negative. I don't think that it's negative. I think that that's what societies do and that's what societies should do in order for them to survive. 20:36 And that's a survival mode. That's, you know, it's very similar to what we do as individuals when we're under real like existential threat. And that's what society on the very immediate short time frame, that's not negative at all because the threat is real. 20:56 An immediate you shouldn't take risks, you shouldn't take outside of the box. You shouldn't see the complexity of the situation. You should find the best way to defend yourself, your family and your group or your nation. 21:13 And the way to do that is to create a clear line between us and them and to bring everyone together within your group and, you know, to mobilize people to be willing to defend their nation, their country, their group, their family. 21:29 That's that's a great thing under specific circumstances. I think that it when you think on a longer like time frame, then, and this is by the way, that that's not about these, what I'm going to say right now is not specific to the Israeli society. 21:47 It's it's much broader perspective that we have on societies in conflict. I think that one of the most tragic things for societies in conflict is that the very same mechanism that helps them to survive when the threat is immediate is the mechanism that prevent them from even exploring ways to move forward when, when they need to do that. 22:16 And this is true. It's not specific to the Israeli society. That's, that's the, the basic mechanism that that, that we see in all societies involving conflict. Because the, the, the things that I've described right now and, and we talked about positive or negative. 22:32 So they are so positive when you really, really under existential threat, they become the reason that you cannot identify the nuances in the reality or the opportunities to move forward when when, when the threat decreases to some extent. 22:52 And I think that in an, in an ideal world, what we would have wanted societies to do is to be much more flexible in terms of their reactions and to know how to react in this very effective fight and flight mode when you're under attack. 23:14 But then to somehow move away from this fight and flight mode and look at the reality in a more nuanced way and then try to explore ways to to, to move forward. I think that in most cases it's very difficult for societies to do that. 23:35 Speaker 2 If you're enjoying this conversation, don't. 23:37 Speaker 4 Forget to subscribe to RAW. 23:38 Speaker 2 On your favorite podcast platform, leave a review and share it with someone who might find it meaningful. You can also explore more about the show and subscribe to my newsletter at with anuke.com. 23:55 Speaker 3 I think it's kind of like the same processes that people have as individuals. 23:58 The Importance of Resilience I think a lot of us in the last year and a half, specifically when they were sirens and when there is news of like a terror attack, et cetera, it puts us immediately in that kind of like fight, flight, which you say is completely normal, evolutionarily appropriate for survival. 24:14 But a lot of what I talk on this podcast about is, is this resilience, is this kind of like flexibility, malleability of being able to say right now I'm in my shelter, there seems to be no more threat. You know, my heart rate can decrease. 24:29 I can smile to my kids. My body can kind of go from that state of threat to, to safety, to relative safety. And in that place of relative safety, I can generally think more creatively, right? 24:44 Because that kind of what we talked about that prefrontal cortex, you know, we can, we can think more creatively, we can think more compassionately. We can, you know, look at the emotions of our kids. And, and I think what you're talking about is on a national level and on a political level, it seems that a lot of our leaders, and, and that's what I always say, you know, that leaders themselves don't seem to have this kind of psychological malleability of being able to say, yes, there is this threat, but the threat has decreased to this level. 25:14 And now, you know, we can look at this solution, but can we also look at this solution? Yes, we need to be prepared militarily to do all these things, but we always need to keep one eye on the possibility that, you know, maybe we'll find a new partner, right. And, and, and I think what a lot of groups tend to do is just to go into that. 25:32 I imagine like football fans like it's like US versus them and we're the good ones. Important thing is that. 25:39 Speaker 1 It also prevents us from, you know, improving our own situation. When you get into this, you know, tunnel vision kind of thinking that let's take a very concrete example, OK, Israel as as a nation. And it's not about politics. 25:55 It's not about whether it's it's right wing or left wing. Israel as as a nation has avoided the the the opportunity to talk about like the day after in Gaza, right? We don't have plans, we don't have strategy. 26:11 We don't have any idea until Trump came last said, OK, that's not a problem, we'll just move on. But it's but Israel want to control our future, right? In order for you as a nation, it doesn't matter if this potential solution for the day after in Gaza would be a left wing solution, a right wing solution, a midway, whatever, okay. 26:32 But in order for you to seriously think about the day after, you need to move away from thinking, you know, tuck in your we're the good guys, they're the bad guys. We need to kill them all and we need to revenge on what happened on on October 7th. You need to think more creatively. 26:49 You need to consider different alternatives. You need to think more rationally. You cannot do that if you're in a fight flight mode, stuck from October 7th. By now you talked about it as malleability or flexibility. That's exactly the thing. 27:05 What's good or bad, what's negative or positive? It's not the same thing for all situations. I mean, right psychological reaction after October 7th is not the right psychological reaction right now. 27:21 And we need to change the mindset if we want to think about our future. So tell us about. 27:27 The acceleration of the process of re-entry The kind of data expected and surprising that you have found. You said that in Israeli society you saw this kind of acceleration of all these processes that you would normally expect to take a few years of both on the one hand like entrenchment in a certain, you know, victim narrative, which is which is also true. 27:47 And on the other hand, a kind of openness to to more pragmatism to maybe not just leaving things be as we kind of, we put the Palestinian question on the side for so many years. Exactly so. 28:01 Speaker 1 So on the one hand, we saw this radicalization, hatred, mistrust, lack of, of belief in peace. And that's, you know, I always say and people, people criticize me when I say that, but it's not, it's not a normative statement. It's, it's, I would say if as a social psychologist, if I would have seen something different within the Israeli society, I would have been shocked. 28:24 I mean, because that that's how people respond to what happened to, to these, these terrible events that happened on, on October 7th. At the same time, we see three or four other indications on, on a very different directions, in a more pragmatic direction that for me, we're surprised. 28:42 The first one is that levels of, of the sense of urgency to resolve the conflict increased dramatically and, and, and in order to understand that we need to understand where the Israeli society work was before October 7th. 28:58 So, so before October 7th, many people said, you know, there's no partner for peace there there, there aren't Palestinians that that can can be negotiated with. But also it's not really important. There are other things that are much, much more important for the Israeli society. 29:14 We've done a study before October 7th with 200 people in more than 10 focus groups and we asked them what are the five main challenges for the Israeli society in the next decade. 29:30 And there wasn't even one person among these 200 people who said or mentioned the Israeli Palestinian conflict as one of the 1st 5 challenges. 29:42 Speaker 3 So it means. 29:43 Speaker 1 That Israelis basically believe that, you know, we can live with that. Now it sounds crazy because we know where we are, but but back then it was. So the sense of urgency increased from about 15 percent, 15 before October 7th to more than 70% right now. 30:02 So more than 70%, more than 2/3 of the Israelis right now are saying it's urgent to find solutions to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And the solutions need to, you know, to appear now. And that's very different from the conflict management idea that was very dominant here like before October 7th. 30:22 It means that we're now in this new area of exploring different options. And you know, the fact that 70% of the Israelis supported the Trump regional deal before these ideas of, of exporting like Palestinians, 70% supported this. 30:40 And then 70% also supported these new ideas of, of offering Palestinians to leave or transferring them or whatever. It means that Israelis that they want solutions, they, they're not willing to go back to where we were before October 7th. 30:57 And that's the first and, and the very important step towards the second thing that happened. And I think that many people are missing that. And that's very, very, for me, it's very important. I think that many Israelis in the last, I would say, six months, suddenly realize that power has limits. 31:22 And that's, that's a totally new mindset for many people within the Israeli society. I mean, the idea that military force is important, it's really important. You need to defend yourself somehow. A military force is something that can be very important in that sense. 31:41 But military force has limits and it won't provide US security in of itself if it won't be coupled with effective diplomacy, regional arrangements, cooperation with moderate, I mean, these kind of things. 31:57 That's a huge shift in people's in, in Israelis mindset. You know, most Israelis for many, many years believed that if you only, you know, in Hebrew, say it will Italian itself. Just let the IDF win. Just release the IDF, give them the time, the, the, the, the budget, whatever the and, and they will resolve all problems. 32:21 I think that people people now realize that the reality has changed. You know that when Iran attacks us, if we haven't had the support of the US in moderate Arab countries, it wouldn't wouldn't be enough. And if you couple this increased sense of urgency with the understanding that military force is not enough, and with the fact that in in our last poll, we got more than 75% of Israelis are saying only integration of diplomatic arrangement, including the Palestinians and military force would would provide Israel security or would, would would, you know, ensure that we won't get back to October 6th? 33:08 That's a huge shift. So on the one hand, the Israelis are not talking about peace as they talked about before, like, you know, thinking about this very idealistic idea of peace and harmony with the Palestinians, They oppose like the two state solution or peace solutions when they are introduced directly. 33:31 But when they think about everything from a like security perspective, they're willing to be very, very pragmatic even in making like serious concessions in order to move forward and find solutions for this conflict. 33:47 And that's that's interesting that these two things, the radicalization on the one hand and the pragmatism on the other hand, are happening simultaneously among the same people at the same time. 34:00 What can a society do to make it easier for people to look at their own ideas? What are some of? 34:00 Speaker 3 The things that you think a society can do. I know you talked a lot about that the education system that you're worried that in the education system there is not enough focus on teaching tolerance and teaching, kind of like seeing things from different perspectives, being open to change. 34:17 And again, we can talk about the, you know, the psychological reasons for that. You know, when, when we when we make most decisions in our day-to-day lives, we don't want to have to question them, them all the time. You know, you talked about when you're sitting in it at A at Starbucks or whatever there is in Starbucks here, but you don't want to ask yourself every day from the start, you know, what kind of coffee do I like and what's good for my health, etcetera. 34:38 So we don't like to change our opinions so much. And yet we also know that for a healthy society to function, we and especially our leaders need to be able to look at things anew and not be in any kind of ideologic, in any kind of ideology in a radical way. 34:55 Whether it's, you know, humanitarianism or, or, you know, more extreme forms of, of, you know, Jewish supremacy or, or, or whatever. What do you think a society can do in order to make it easier for people to look at their own ideas, which are very often very ingrained? 35:15 They're cultural so that they're societal. You know, generally we are in communities that think the same way as us. And it's very hard for someone to be the one that says, actually, I read something and I'm, you know, I'm changing my political views. It's extremely hard to do that. 35:31 Is that necessary? And what are some of the things that you think societies can do in order to make, Again, we talk about flexibility and malleability to make it easier for people to look at evidence. 35:45 How to make it easier for people to look at evidence And again, we live in a post fact, post truth world, so we're not even sure. This question is not rhetorical, but are there practical steps, whether it is an education or elsewhere, that we can do in order to have that flexibility of of of thought? 36:03 Speaker 1 I think that there's, there's the 1st and probably most important thing to understand before we talk about tools and solutions is that democratic societies or democratic environment or climate are not maintained naturally. 36:26 And that's, that's a very important thing like, like, like to say. And I know in a war, we're under threat. The situation is very, very difficult and, and, and very challenging. But one of the things that I've seen in my studies among many societies around the world is that the natural vector, the natural dynamic of societies, as long as there there isn't any like force that that stops them from from going there is to go towards these more would say extremist, more people sticking to their own groups. 37:03 They see all others as as as as in in a negative way. They develop these stereotypes and, and, and racist. I think. I mean, that's where societies go as long as there aren't mechanisms and mechanisms, you know, you mentioned education, but I can, I can talk about other relevant mechanisms that stop them from going there. 37:24 And, and I think that what happens in, in, in Israel in the last two decades is that we fail to differentiate between politics like political views. You can again, you can be rightist or you can be leftist versus the, the very basic idea of how do you create a, a democratic environment, an environment in which people look at each other in a tolerant, respectful way, in which people, you know, appreciate equality between different individuals, in which people are open to new ideas, even though they they, they, they don't necessarily support them ideologically. 38:02 And I think that if we fail to understand that they're then we're, we're on on our, you know, very clear way adopt non democratic practices. And then practically what to do about that. I would say that there are two levels. 38:18 One level is the normative level and the normative level. Basically, you know, when we think about norms in social psychology, the idea is what do people believe that others or the mainstream of the others they appreciate, believe that is is the right thing to do or the appropriate thing to do in a certain situation. 38:47 And what we see in the Israeli society in the last two decades is that people don't really fight for norms. Think about schools, think about the media, think about political leaders, think about the civil society. 39:04 Do we put the line where we think that? I mean, what's not appropriate in the Israeli society anymore? I think that now everything is OK. Let's give this this example of when Rabbi Mayor Kahana was first elected to the Israeli parliament. 39:22 I think that it was 83 or 84 and he went into the, the, the, the Knesset to give his first speech. So the head of the Likud party back then, it's Traction Mill, Prime Minister, it's former Prime Minister Traction Mill went out of the room and asked everyone else to join him to get out of the room. 39:44 And then he stood up in in front of the the media, the Israeli media and he said, I went out because I want to say very, very clearly that people who are explicit racist are not part of this parliament. 40:00 They shouldn't be here. That's not an appropriate thing for and it doesn't matter if you're a rightist or a leftist, 40 years later you can't think of anyone within the Israeli parliament media. 40:15 The education system, who takes care of our norms, of our social norms of what's right and what's wrong? What are, what do we signal to our children, to our society about right and wrong? And it's not about being, you know, rightist or leftist. 40:31 It's about, it's about, it's about basic norms. So one thing is, and I think that one of the things that at least I'm trying to do in, in the last decade is to convince more and more people to say we need to set norms for the Israeli society. 40:47 Because otherwise you don't just stay on on the same place. You don't, don't, don't just maintain the status quo. You simply go and become much, much, much more radical and much less democratic. And the second thing is that I think that there are specific ideas, there are specific themes that can be delivered definitely to, to to young, young children that can, you know, open their mind even we're not talking about specific political issues. 41:17 You know, you mentioned the word malleability. So many of my studies are dealing with the question of, of how do you make people believe that the reality, other groups, people's views are more malleable than they take. 41:33 And, and, and what we show in many of our studies is that when you make people believe that people's views can change and that groups can change and that conflicts can change and the reality can change, they become much more hopeful. Their levels of hatred decrease, decreases dramatically, and they're much more open to, to new ideas. 41:53 So there are specific ideas, there are specific messages, there are specific themes that can be conveyed to to to people, you know, through education or through media or through other channels of communication that that can make us more open minded. 42:11 You talk. 42:11 Trump About norms and, you know, I, I think it's something, it's something global. I read someone wrote recently you know about Trump. 42:20 Speaker 1 What could? 42:21 Speaker 3 Trump do that would make you say, you know, he's not fit to be present. Is there such a thing today? Is there a norm by which we would say if he did that, you know, he would not be. You know, he he was convicted for for for sex offenses and financial offenses and made, you know, all kinds of horrible, terrible remarks about Jews as well about women. 42:47 And yet he's president. And I think it's a very, very good question, both for our politicians. And again, I'm, I'm not saying Trump is good or bad. A lot of people believe he's doing, you know, he's a very great ally of Israel. But when you're talking about norms, you're talking about basic human values of, of kind of basic decency that is needed in order for not just democratic societies to flourish, but societies in which people are more tolerant, kind, trusting of each other. 43:16 Not to the level where they where it's all like butterflies and we leave our front door open, but to the point where, again, we can go back to that flexibility of being able to look at creative solutions and see that things can change. And I think it's a global trend of leaders all over the world who you know by who are really breaking all norms of, of decent societies, of what we thought of as as as decent, decent society. 43:44 I absolutely agree. 43:45 Speaker 1 But let's take Trump's example, because I think that it's a great example. You can look at Trump, let's say as an Israeli, OK? You can look at Trump and say, OK, his policies are great for Israel, OK, And you can evaluate him as a leader, as the as the leader of the free or democratic world and say he's amazing for his. 44:06 I'm not saying if this is my position or not. It's not relevant for now, but you can say that's my parameter for like evaluation. But you can also say the same time, what does the fact that this specific person is the leader of the free world? 44:23 What does it mean in terms of the signaling of norms? What does my 17 years old daughter understand about the world by the fact that this sexist, chauvinist man is the president of the United States. 44:40 And for me, in terms of, you know, designing and maintaining norms, I mean that that's a much, much more important parameter when I consider a leader. Then the question of to what extent he's, you know, policies are good or bad from, from, from, for my group. 44:58 And that, that's exactly what I, what I mentioned when, when I talked about norms before sticking for your own norms, it's a fight. And, and you need to make compromises in order to succeed in that struggle. And I think that we fail, we fail. And that's, that's probably our biggest failure. 45:15 And again, leaving the war aside for a second, but, but, but in terms of our biggest failure, in terms of trying to maintain a decent democratic society, yeah. 45:26 Speaker 3 And, and I think, you know, final thought, I think that the question really is, are the norms that most people care about, if you really ask them, is the norm, the values that they care about still tolerance, democracy, open mindedness, humanism to an extent, you know, you can be practical humanism. 45:48 Or is it some kind of like supremacist Jewish nationalist? Because some people are saying that the trends are shifting and that for some people, those values and those norms, you know, the greater Israel, the biblical Israel, God and chose and the chosen people, it's kind of like a trend that that cannot be ignored. 46:08 I agree. 46:10 Speaker 1 And you can ask this question from the other side. I mean, can you, can you do both? Can you do both? Can you, Can you really? I mean, when you feel that your society or country is under threat, can you, on the one hand, you know, do whatever, whatever is possible to defend your country, to stick to your people to, to make sure that and, and again, realize or acknowledge the fact that the, the, the Jewish Zionist identity of the country is very important for its survival, etcetera. 46:41 And at the same time maintain, you know, humanitarian values, democracy, tolerance. I think that that's probably our biggest challenge. 46:53 Speaker 3 Yeah. And thank you so much. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for inviting me. It's. 46:57 Speaker 1 Been a pleasure.

Related Episodes

What they’re saying

“So deep, so true, so hopeful.”

 “Thank you so much for this wonderful interview — so deep, so true, so hopeful. May you both be blessed!”

@nachamuami

YouTube

“Meaningful in the madness.”

 “Thank you for making the effort to have this conversation and create this podcast for us during such madness. I still process the stress we went through, and listening to this conversation was truly meaningful to me.”

@five_green_olives

YouTube

“Thoughtful and eye-opening.”

“An incredible find!”

Avigail80

Apple podcast

“Raises big questions, makes your heart sing.”

 “This podcast is remarkable as it delves deep into the emotional journey stirred by the conflict between Hamas and Israel. A must-listen that raises important questions and makes your heart sing. Excited for more!”

5AliBali5

Apple podcast

“A healing beacon.”

 “RAW provides a profound journey for the soul, spirit, and mind. In these challenging times, it serves as a therapeutic guide, offering insights that help confront the complexity of the Israel war.”

LuLu6764

Apple podcast

“Food for the soul.”

“I have been searching for a podcast like this, one that speaks to my heart and soul in these challenging times. This was a great episode and I am looking forward to the next one!”

Johnson_768

Apple podcast

Subscribe to the Newsletter

Thoughtful reflections, upcoming events, and gentle resources to support your path toward resilience, clarity, and mindful presence.

By entering your email, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy, including receipt of emails and promotions.

+ 3

PODCAST

SOCIAL

  • info@withanouk.com

LEARN

About

Contact

SERVICES

Podcasts

Meditations

Speaking Engagements

Books

Blogs

LEGAL

Terms of use

Privacy Policy

Booking Policy

Cookie Policy

© 2025 Anouk Pvt. Ltd. All rights reserved. Unless otherwise noted, the content displayed on this website is the intellectual property of Anouk Pvt. Ltd. All logos, trademarks and work samples are property of their respective owners.

PODCAST

apple-podcasts

SOCIAL

Business address to be mentioned here

LEARN

About

Contact

LEGAL

Terms of use

Privacy Policy

Booking Policy

Cookie Policy

SERVICES

Podcasts

Meditations

Speaking Engagements

Books

Blogs

  • info@withanouk.com

© 2025 Anouk Pvt. Ltd. All rights reserved. Unless otherwise noted, the content displayed on this website is the intellectual property of Anouk Pvt. Ltd. All logos, trademarks and work samples are property of their respective owners.

Subscribe to my Newsletter

Get insights, event updates, and exclusive resources to support your path to resilience and mindful living.

By entering your email, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy, including receipt of emails and promotions.